#72 - Behavior Science Behind Tactical Performance with Sarah Welsh

Most tactical athletes know what to do. The problem is doing it consistently - especially when life gets hard, schedules break down, and pressure spikes. 

The "lock in" or "perfect tomorrow" hasn't worked for lasting change, and won't be sustainable in the future. We need new strategies and tactics to actually follow through... 

In this episode, behavioral analyst Sara Welsh helps break down behavior change that lasts - regardless of what chaos gets thrown your way. 

IG: sarahwelshbehavior

Website: catalystbehaviorproject.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

What's going on, everybody? We got Sarah here today. I'm super excited to dive into some of these topics. We've talked about performance, we've talked about training, behavior change, all these different things. So before we get into it, could you just give us like a 10,000-foot view of what a behavior analyst is and essentially how you got here?

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Yeah, definitely. So I'm Sarah Welsh. I am a board certified behavior analyst, a BCBA, and I am a behavior change specialist. So people come to me when they have decided they want to make a behavior change. They know what they should be doing, but they also understand that they cannot follow through. And this happens, we all struggled with this, right? We know, okay, I should be eating these foods. I should be moving this frequently. Um, I should be speaking to my children this way, but I'm just not. And so they come to me, and what I do is I look at the variables surrounding it, the situation surrounding it, and the learner's history. And we just kind of unpack where's the breakdown, right? You know what you want to be doing, you know what you should be doing, um, and you're just not following through. So that's where I come in. So we just break it down into some simple steps and we, you know, kind of workshop it together and I coach them through and then I teach them the process so that then they can do it without me next time they run into that same kind of issue of like, I want to change behavior. Oh, there's a process to it. I know how to do it now. Behavior change is very much a skill.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

That's really cool. Yeah, it's it's honestly, I think it's the biggest missing link when it comes to strength and conditioning because yeah, like it's I don't want to, you know, make it dumb it down or anything. I hate that term, but it's the idea move more, eat more uh efficiently, and just exercise. So everybody like everybody understands that concept, but I think truly breaking it down and getting to the actual behaviors of why you are maybe going off track or certain things like that is arguably the most important part to any kind of strength and conditioning journey.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Yeah, oh, a thousand percent. And what I love about the behavior change piece, and this is like what changed my entire approach to fitness and strength training, was there's never an outcome. Like I'm not looking for an outcome, I'm looking for the process. Like, how do I make the process stronger? How do I make the process more enjoyable? So that this, you know, this um kind of the process of becoming who I want to be is the fun part. It's not about, oh, cool, I just like hit this goal. Because once you hit a goal, there's oftentimes kind of just like this lull where you're like, well, what do I do now? Like I hit this goal, now what? And behavior change is all about how do we make the action the fun part and how do we make that more reinforcing?

SPEAKER_01 2:45

That's really cool. So you talked about your your performance. So I know you're getting after pull-ups, uh ripping some super heavy kettlebell swings. Uh, I'm curious from your professional perspective, how much does that influence, how much does training influence behaviors outside of the gym?

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Oh my God. Okay. So it's huge. Um, whenever so I have I have a client right now who's working with me, and you know, he came to me for stress management. And like there was, he's a he's a high performer, he's a very high stress job working with um high performers and managing kind of them. And he was very stressful, right? He came to me, he's like, I want to manage my stress, I want to feel more confident. First thing I said was, what are you doing for a workout? Like, are you moving your body? And I am not a, I'm in the process of studying for my my CSCS. So like I would love to. Yeah, I'm pumped about it. Thank you. Um, but I I don't write programs. But what I do is I'll say, you know, are you moving? And do you have a trainer you're working with? And then I help them adhere to whatever those plans are, right? But I talked to this guy and I was like, how often are you moving? Like, you know, are you lifting? Are you strength training? And he was like, I have fallen off. First thing I do is I encourage people to get back in the gym or get back into running, get back into some sort of movement. Because what it does is it allows us to feel in control, like we get some control back over our lives, right? For that 30 minutes in the gym or 30 minutes in your basement with the weights like, okay, I said I was gonna do this and I did it. And just that action and that piece of like, oh, I know what I'm gonna do, I have a plan, and then you complete it, it starts to kind of rewire your brain and it builds the skill of like self-efficacy, which just means I said what I'm gonna do and then I did that thing, right? And so it it'll generalize. Once you're kind of in this, in this mode of going to the gym, doing your strengths training, whatever, like it's gonna generalize to other places because that confidence and that belief in yourself is going to start to grow and accumulate. So this client, that's where we started, but now it's showing up other places. He is um, he's setting boundaries, which is great. Like work-life boundaries are being set. He's communicating more clearly because again, it's just these this idea of like, oh, I have this idea of what I want to do, and now I know I can do it because I've done it before. I did it in the gym, and then he did it with his diet, and now he's doing it in his marriage and his work. And so it's really cool to see that kind of process play out.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Yeah, that's that's awesome. I know like the I always say to people, like the the fastest way to kill confidence is to say you're gonna do something and then just don't do it. Yeah. So, like you said, even if it's like 7,500 steps, even if it's just some sort of movement, that's gonna have such a big carryover to everything else that you're doing. So um, really, really appreciate that. I'm curious, like kind of backtracking a little bit, how did you get here? We we kind of jumped that point. So you're you're working with high performers, you're helping people with the different systems, making sure their behaviors are changing, but like how did you get here?

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Okay, so my story is a little, it's a little weird. Um, I was a daycare teacher, I was an early childhood educator, and I was working in a hospital at their child care center. So I was working with these high performers' children, right? And then I, you know, so I was kind of getting getting to know them and studying behavior, and I was using behavior change with kids. And then I started working with the parents and like providing, you know, coaching for the parents. And then when I went to get my master's um degree, I just kind of stayed in touch with these parents. These are a lot of doctors, a lot of administrators, a lot of higher-up execs. Um, one of them is the chief medical officer at a pretty well-known hospital now. Um, so these really incredible people. And I would work with them, right, and get to know kind of their behaviors and I would watch how it impacted their children. And so then I started taking the science and I was thinking, like, okay, if I can use the science with these kids and I can manage their behaviors, like, can I also work with adults and can I use it on myself? And so it was really just curiosity, right? And so then I started using the science on myself to start, right? So I was like, okay, you know, I can use this behavior to manage a room full of toddlers, but now I want to try it on myself. So I said doing it on my own fitness journey because I had never been someone who worked out. And I was like, I really want to be that girl who goes to the gym, like so badly. So started, you know, implementing just really small behavior changes. I had never picked up a weight. Um, I did a couple of interventions on myself, and now it's six years later, and I regularly lift heavy. I maintained it through pregnancy, through postpartum, through my entire grad school. Like it is a rock solid routine now that is not going anywhere. And so that's kind of how I started thinking about the field more flexibly, because most behavior analysts do not break out of the early childhood or the education realm. Um, and I was just happy to leave it there. But then one of my really good friends is a physical therapist, and he mentioned he was like, I tell my clients what to do. If they would just do it, they would get better. I don't understand. And so I asked him, this was years ago, I was like, Do you know anything about behavior change? And he was like, No, like, why would I? And in my brain, in my brain, it just makes sense. Like, of course, a physical therapist or a dietitian or a strength trainer should know about behavior change because that is what you're trying to get your clients to do. And so then I just started really thinking about how many professions are not trained in behavior change. And so I just started kind of asking around, like poking my head into different rooms and conversations. And I got a few clients. It was basically referrals from him, referrals from gyms who are like, hey, I have this person who knows what they want to be doing. They know how to do it, but they're not doing it. And it was, you know, a lot of them were um, a lot of them were athletes. Oh, got a couple of athletes. I have a I had a former pro athlete for a while, loved working with him. But so there are these people who are like, I'm very successful in some areas of my life and I know I can make change, but then there's other areas of my life where I'm just struggling and like, why is that? And so they would come see me because it was like they were like, we've tried talk therapy, that didn't work. We've tried, you know, counseling, that didn't work. And so they come and they talk to me instead, right? And so then we just kind of troubleshoot, like, all right, you know, you say you want to get a point, get to point B and you're starting point A. Like, let's kind of create a roadmap together to get there. Um, and it's it's just been an accumulation of really small, steady, stubborn steps from me. I'm like very dogged in my desire to bring the science to new fields.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

I love it. It's so funny that you started with children because the older I get, I just think that we're all children. And I wonder, like, I mean, you would know like how much behavior, quote unquote issues, I don't know if that's the right term, but we bring from childhood that stays with us and it's just revealed differently as adults, but it's from the the root cause as a child. Is that accurate?

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Um, I could go, I'm like, I'm like trying to contain myself. Um it's all of it. So behavior is a formula and it is based on what's happened before, like previous experiences. So anything that has happened to us in our lifetime is impacting every decision we make now. So whether we are aware of it or not, right? And it's it all goes back to our childhood. And this isn't, I'm not about blaming parents. It's not blaming anyone. It's just we are this the product of systems that we're raised in, right? And our parents are the products of systems that they were raised in. And anytime we are exposed to an environment or um like a any sort of variable, our brain just logs it away and is like, oh, okay, this is how we respond in this situation. This is how we stay safe. So I have, you know, I have a three-year-old right now, and I'm just really careful with everything I do with him because it is being logged away in his brain, and he's learning this is how I relate to the world. This is my place, and here's what I'm supposed to do in any of these given situations.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Wow. Yeah, that's that's impactful. I I worked with uh a guy, he uh he's a mentor of mine, and we were talking one day, and we were talking about book recommendations, and he was like, Oh, I recommend you read. Uh, it was something on the lines of like how to speak to children so they listen. And I I kind of laughed, and he's like, No, I'm serious. And it's like directly applicable to to adults and to everything there. So that's a really, really interesting perspective. So I wanted to zoom in a little bit here. Yeah. And you've worked with tactical athletes, high performers, different things like that. Are there any common desired behavior changes from those folks or or ones that you would recommend for for us?

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Um, so I definitely see there's a lot of there's a lot of stress management. Um, there's a lot of emotional processing. And there's also like from the health perspective, just so sleep is big. I guess there's so many. I'm like thinking, I'm like, that's a lot. Um all right, let me start. I'll start with I have a client right now. I'm working with a um, I work with a couple of firefighters, but I'm working with with one right now as a chief. And it's interesting watching how he's transitioning into retirement um and what like how we're watching like his behaviors carry over. Um, and we're undoing some of these learned habits. And a big thing, and I I've noticed this with other, so firefighters, um, lawyers are another big one, is this idea of time blindness, which is where you're not really managing your time. You're kind of going from crisis to crisis to crisis. And because you're always in this kind of fight mode, you're ready to take out this next thing, tackle this next beast. You don't actually think about filling that time and getting things done on your to-do list, right? Or like taking care of yourself, eating, sleeping. You're just like, okay, I gotta be constantly ready for this next thing. And then the end of the day comes and you're like, what did I even do today? Right. Because you're just busy fighting fires, literally or figuratively. Yeah. Um, so that's been a big thing is just helping, helping him understand like how much time he actually has and then how to spend that time proactively. Um, so that's a big one. And then also just like sleep. Like, are you sleeping? Are you sleeping appropriately? Or do you have a good sleep hygiene? Um, are you prioritizing it? Because I know, so like some of the firefighters I work with, you know, they're parents too. And so when they're not sleep, when they're not at work, they're like, oh, I got to be a parent. And I want to like prioritize that. But I have to remind them like you're not going to be as effective as a parent or as present as a parent if you're not first prioritizing like your own health needs, whether that is eating, you know, nutrient-dense meals, taking, you know, a little bit of a nap, um, and you know, making sure that you get that movement in too. So your body feels good.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Okay. So for your client with the time, like what would you do to start? Like, you don't need to run us through an entire protocol. I mean, obviously feel free if you want. But like if I came to you and was like, hey, my time's all over the place. I don't feel productive on a day-to-day basis, like, how would you start with that person or with me in this example?

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Yeah. So first thing I would do is ask, what are your anchor behaviors? And anchor behaviors are behaviors that occur every single day, regardless of where you are, what's going on, you know, you're traveling. For some people, for most of my clients, it's usually coffee. Like coffee is a big thing. They get up, they have their cup of coffee, and you know, then maybe they have a meal. But even meals can fluctuate so much, right? Um, because you might have to skip breakfast some days. And so maybe that's not an anchor behavior. But I we identify an anchor behavior and we build around that. So just, you know, first I just want them to have a sense of time, like how much time is lapsing between, you know, cup one to cup two of coffee or, you know, bottles of water, whatever. But it's just this idea of there's an action that you take every day and it is taking up so much time, and how much time is between each of these steps so we can kind of start to gauge, you know, where you are and and how much time is passing. So that's the very first step. What I would do then is ask them to then identify, you know, so once we have we have those behaviors and we're kind of understanding where's my time going, um, I would say, let's identify like two to three things that you want to get done today. Very simple things. And just practice completing a to-do list, not a 20-item to-do list, three items, right? Because again, it goes back to that self-efficacy, which is I know what I'm gonna do. I'm saying I'm going to do it, and then I actually check it off.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Okay. Yeah, that's it's I'm glad that you said that because I was about to just ask you, because I I'm guilty of this, and I know all my clients are as well, where we will, and the the people I've had conversations with, we will say, okay, I want to improve X behavior, therefore, I'm going to do Y times 20, and I'm going to grit mental toughness, discipline my way through this. So I guess what would you say to that person who's like, okay, I'm flipping the switch, I'm going to lock in and we're going to take off and I'm going to change this thing.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Okay. So whenever a client says this to me, and I'm going to hold your hand when I say this, and I will often say it to my clients because they hate this, is take us, take a step back. We're not changing everything right now. We're actually not going to change anything right now. Because I I swear that comes from this feeling of overwhelm. And it's like, okay, I'm locking in, I'm changing. And it's like, wait, before we make any huge changes, I want us to just take a beat and actually observe what's going on because we feel like, okay, you know, this is going to make me feel better if I just overhaul everything. Then what happens is we fail inevitably, right? And then it's like, well, I can't do anything right. And no, you can't do, you know, it's it's like um 75 hard or whole 30. There are a few people who are able to grit and just tough through it. Um, but even then I'm like, what are you getting out of it? And I'll ask them that too, right? Like you want to overhaul your life. What are you gonna get out of this? Right. And so we just take a step back and I say, let's just, let's look at one thing. What's one thing you want to change? And I try to um, I try to go into it with like the perspective of like an investigator where there's no judgment. I'm not looking for the right answer. I'm genuinely just curious, like, where is the stress coming from? Where are you struggling in your day? Like, where is the tension coming from? And that takes pausing and like actually looking at your life, not just running and jumping into this whole new cycle. Because a lot of the times people will, you know, they'll think in their head, okay, if I would just lose weight, my life would be better. Or if I could just lift heavier, my life would be better. And that's not the issue at all. There's other things going on underneath of that, and we have to identify what's actually bringing this person, you know, stress and anxiety and you know, causing the disruptions to their life.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yeah, that's really cool. Get into the get into the root cause because I've known uh I've been guilty of this, and my coach has helped me course correct, where what we think is the issue, we'll go all in on that, and the issue is really on the other side. Like it's not even we're not even going after the right target with whatever that may be. So, do you find that's the case where it's like, okay, I want to improve this behavior, and you start doing your investigation, if you will, not literally, but asking questions, and then you're like, well, maybe it's this behavior is what we should add, or or what do you see that a lot?

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Yes. So, and that's actually like the PTs I work with. Um, the very first client they sent me, they were like, Okay, we have this guy, he wants to be running, he wants to run, I think it was like a hundred miles. Um, and he's working on it, and we're just like really struggling to make progress. And so I was like, okay, you know, they'd been working with him for about six months, and they were like, we don't know why he is struggling so badly. So he comes to see me, and within like five minutes, um, I figured out why they were not making progress. And it's because I asked him, and no one had asked him this yet. I was like, What is the point of you running a hundred miles? Like, what are you hoping to get out of this?

SPEAKER_01 19:22

What are you running from?

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Yeah, well, and and I was like, What, like, yeah, what is this gonna give you? And he was like, Well, I want to meet like a woman who runs because I he like was like, I just want, I want to date, I want to connect socially with with this type of woman. And I was like, Okay, that's we now have to approach this very differently because when they were having him run, he was just running in his neighborhood, like just like going for runs by himself, right? And I was like, okay, that's not gonna get you any closer to meeting someone who runs. Like we now have to think about, you know, this is being driven by a social desire, not an athletic desire. And so, yes, his running was getting better, but he just wasn't as interested in it because the motivation was completely misdirected. And so then when I explained that to them, they were like, that is the weirdest thing I've ever heard. Like, I why we would never have made that connection, but it's because like they didn't know what questions to ask. Um, and so that was interesting, right? And so, so then like when he was working with me, we totally shifted from, you know, yes, he's working with the PTs to Rhyme, but now he's working with me on what kind of woman do I want to be with? Why does that matter? You know, how can I, you know, meet the type of woman, the caliber of person to be a partner. Um, because he just and I found that with tactical athletes, with um this demographic, they really do think in kind of this if I do X, then I will get Y. And so it's you know, sometimes it's just talking to them about, you know, it doesn't always work that way, but it can. We just have to be, you know, thinking about it a little bit differently. There's a lot of um, there's a lot of neurodivergence in these athletes. I'm not sure if you've ever talked about that or if you've heard it.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Not really. Do you want to go into it?

SPEAKER_00 21:03

I would love to. Oh my god, yes. Um so it's actually just talking. So my little brother, he's 29, but whatever, little brother. My little brother is a firefighter, and I was I was hanging out with him recently, and then one of my really good friends, her husband, is also a firefighter. And we were just kind of all talking about, you know, that world, the fireworld. And I mentioned, you know, there there seems to be like a high level of ADHD and trauma in that world. And it's when you understand that, like their brains work differently. So I personally I have ADHD, right? Like, and it's not an identity, it just, it just helps me think a little bit differently. Um, and it helps me approach change a little bit differently. But so yeah, my little brother is he was like, oh, hell yeah, like we all do, right? But it just means that they see the world differently. They are constantly chasing, you know, this next thing, this next outcome, the dopamine, the drive for dopamine is so. High. And that goes back to it, really does go back to your childhood and these patterns that have been embedded in you, like these behavioral systems that you're operating within. Um, so it's I do kind of keep that in mind, like these these people's brains, like you you wouldn't be um a first responder if your brain worked typically. That's okay to say. Like I've said that to all of my clients, and they're like, we're well aware.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

I 100% agree. Like if you're if your brain's not firing like it, like it should be, or um, you know, you see, unfortunately, we see it where it's like, oh, I'm just gonna kind of let myself go, and then God forbid something were to happen, and you are not like firing the way that you're supposed to, or the way that you were trained. Um, so yeah, that's all that's all really good stuff. Um yeah. I'm curious, like how so with say your your brother, for example, or different things, like how would you or how would that alter your your path as a coach for for this person?

SPEAKER_00 22:59

Okay, so like thinking which piece? ADHD, trauma?

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Both, either one.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

All of it? Okay. So it just means that I'm gonna be looking at them from a more comprehensive lens. So values, I want to understand what are their deeply held values. And I'm not talking like, yes, it's good to know, because I'll ask you, like, what are your values? And they'll say, oh, you know, like I'm I'm honest and I'm strong and I'm kind. That's great. Those are wonderful. Those are also very vague. So I need them to give me specifics. So like um, I value my family and time with my family. Great. That's really important because that then lends itself to, okay, you want to be strength training so that you can throw your boys as high as you possibly can. You want to be strength training so that you can protect your daughter for as long as you can, right? And like just thinking about these aspects of it. It's not just I'm lifting so heavy in the gym to look a certain way, but I'm also, you know, I'm doing it for these very specific values and it's making my life better. And it's it can be applied to work, right? So, like my little brother talks about um like doing bench pressing to like push a building off of his chest, should that ever happen, right? That's a value for sure. But then it's also like that's not always the most motivating for him. Like sometimes it is, I want to be able to bench press to show off to my friends. And so we I just have to like, depending on the person, like thinking about what's actually pushing this individual, because no one is driven by the same things.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Yeah. So you you talk throughout those those stories about, you know, um, high performers, tactical athletes, uh more specifically, are always looking for the next thing. Yeah so what would you do or how would you feel about somebody who maybe, and I'm guilty of this, and I know a lot of my clients are, maybe like undercut accomplishments, and then they're just like, okay, next, check that box, next, what's next? What's next? Like, if I guess the the issue that I see in myself and other folks is we kind of over-index on optimization or productivity, and then we get lost into like what we are actually doing. So, how would that alter your coaching if you had that type of person?

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Yeah, just this person who's constantly looking for the next, and then once they get it, they don't value it anymore.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Right. Yeah. And then we're just what's next, what's next, what's next.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Yes. So something, and that's that's also why I focus so much on the the act of the like the behavior itself, not the outcome, right? So we we're thinking about how is this going to be shaping my life long term? And what do I enjoy about this action itself, right? Because, and this is just true about anything. Once you have access to it, the value is gone. So, like, let's think about um Halloween candy. Halloween candy is so valuable to us because it's only available like a certain time of the year. Same with like candy canes, like we can kind of do this with like holidays. Once when something is only available during a limited amount of time or like after a specific task is completed, once we we actually have it, it's not valuable anymore. So we elevate the value, then we get it, and we're like, okay, I don't really want this anymore. Right. So for many of these people, the thrill is actually in the pursuing. And so for them, I'm like, we got to think about way bigger, not just, you know, run a marathon or, you know, do this race or this lift this weight, because that's it's too easy. And at years, it's still to me, I'm like, that's too easy. Like this is not, this is not a value. This isn't something that you can complete again and again and again. This needs to be more about what is this bringing me as a person and how is it improving my life in ways that are much more deeply meaningful?

SPEAKER_01 26:36

Wow. That's that's powerful. So almost like a almost like creating stretch goals and then kind of reverse engineering the stretch goal that's not necessarily attainable, I guess, but hitting hitting small stepping stones along the way. Is that what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Exactly. And then celebrating the hell out of all of those, those stepping stones, right? And it's not, it's about saying, like, oh, I did this, and that itself is an accomplishment, right? Like I did this action. I went to the gym today. And like, I'll I will tell people, you know, like going on a day that you only have 20% to give is much more impressive to me than going on a day where you have 100%. Like if you're raring and ready to go to the gym and give 100%, cool. I'm not impressed by that. Like, I'm much more impressed when someone's like, I feel like shit, and this is gonna be a terrible workout, and I'm gonna go to the gym anyway. And it's like, good, like that's that is progress and that should be celebrated just as much, if not more, than those days where you feel great and you know it's gonna be an amazing, you know, an amazing lift.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Okay. Yeah. So that that kind of brings up um it's it's coming to the top of mind where so if you are going for behavior change, say you want to train consistently or you want to improve your nutrition, um, and you quote unquote miss, you can still maintain that behavior. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Oh, hell yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

So, how could you give us an example for like training or nutrition or something like that?

SPEAKER_00 28:01

I guess what do you mean? So, like if you miss, like if you fall off?

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Yeah, so I'm just trying to think about because I know uh I've like I said, I've been guilty of this, and I know a lot of folks are, where it's like, uh, just for an example, okay, I am quote unquote locked in on my nutrition, everything is going really well, and then I go out to dinner, and now it's just absolute haywire. And it's like, oh, I'll just kind of you know regroup next week instead of just responding. Same thing. If you miss a session or you don't have 45 minutes to train, but you have 20 minutes, like can you still maintain that behavior? And would you can would you still consider that a win?

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Oh, how yes. Okay. So this is great because this, and this is actually like I think with this demographic specifically, the hardest thing to teach, which is because I am, you know, I have a long history of like I was a preschool teacher, right? And so like I do have kind of a soft approach, but I'm also the daughter and granddaughter of like high up military men. So I'm like, yeah, there are high standards, super high standards, and at the same time, we can celebrate ourselves on those really shitty days. So like I go to the Cheesecake Factory and I like gorge on those avocado egg rolls, which like maybe where it's not in my, you know, meal plan or whatever. Um, but it's very much like be flexible. Um, so first thing I would do is with these, with these individuals, is I always say, like, let's let's take off the idea of having things that are off limits. So like a cheat meal. Um, I'm really big on saying like we need to build in uh availability for like being lazy. And I don't believe in laziness, so we can talk about that another time. Laziness is a construct. But this idea of like, okay, we're gonna build in, you know, this food that you like. So there is net there should never be, you know, a diet or plan that is so rigid that the things that you enjoy aren't there. So if you like avocado egg rolls, let's have avocado egg rolls before you get to the point where you are craving them and you crash and burn and have a cheat meal, right? And so this is known as um it's non-contingent reinforcement. So it's you don't have to do anything to earn it, right? Because people will say, like, I will allow myself to go eat this cheat meal after I've hit this milestone. No, we're not doing that. We're actually gonna celebrate and allow ourselves flexibility before we reach it because that's actually gonna build more sustainable growth and progress. And yeah, like this idea of I don't have time for an hour workout, especially if you're a parent or if you have a job. Like, let's say, like, so I'll use my little brother because I don't, there's no HIPAA worries for him. So my little brother Jack is he was talking to me about he's like, I'll be getting a workout, and then we'll get like three calls in the span of like his workout, right? Because he works at a busy station and he's like, it's really frustrating. And I just keep coming back and I continue to do it. And sometimes the whole shift goes by and I don't actually finish my workout. But he's like, even just those 10 minutes, you know, in between calls, he's like, I still do it. And I'm like, yeah, and that is an even more impressive workout than if you had a full hour and you just like knocked it out, right? Because it's you practicing, you're fitting it in where you can, or like my pull-ups. I'm really working, I'm gonna get a pull-up this year. I know it.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

You are sure.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

And I I am, I'm so close. Um, even if I don't have time for a full workout, I'll take seven minutes and just do a couple of negatives or like some rows or just some sort of upper body workout just to continue again, the practice of self-efficacy, which is I said I'm gonna do it and I'm going to do something. So it's like flexing this mental skill.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Yeah, that reminds me, I've heard you talk about, um, I think Elisa, correct me if I'm wrong, but you talked about the idea of always having flexibility and building building tolerance with what you're doing. So that's what that reminds me of, where it's like, hey, if you can't get in a full session, go do some damn push-ups. Like, is it the exact same session? No, but like you still held that standard. And in my opinion, you still held that that behavior or desired behavior change.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

Yes. And that that is where I lose a lot of my clients. Like, I they their buy-in is kind of they're like, well, that doesn't count for me. Because again, like we live in this world where you know the standard is the standard and you know it's rigid. And oh my gosh, what did my my little my little brother's fire station had? We don't celebrate mediocrity. Um, which I was like, but sometimes that's all you have. Like, why do you have this hanging in your station? Like, if that's what you've got, that's what you've got. And he was like, Well, we're not gonna celebrate it. And I was like, Okay, that's fine. Like, but it that just kind of bums me out because I'm like, but sometimes, especially like these high stress perfections, there are days where you're just done. Like mentally, you're just fucking done. And those days, if you've got 10%, 15%, and you can get on the floor and do one set of push-ups, that's awesome. It's that's enough. And it's, I tell my clients that over and over again. I tell myself that like this is enough. What I had today was enough. Um, and that is a it's a practice in flexibility, it's a practice in tolerating imperfection. And that is like really an area that that these people struggle. Um, and it's, you know, I I definitely came head to head with a Navy SEAL who did not like that approach. Um he was like, he's like, we're we're looking for the same outcomes, but we have very different approaches. And my approach is, you know, more slow and steady. Um, but I also I don't see burnout as much with my approach, really, at all, because that's it's designed for sustainability.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

Yeah, and even with your approach, like from my opinion, you wouldn't be celebrating mediocrity or or celebrating the yay, yeah, like go me. I just did push-ups instead of my session. I think like the way that I look at it is you're celebrating holding your personal standard, and it's understanding that, like, yeah, like shit's gonna fluctuate, right? But if you can hold that standard or hold that behavior on your worst, then like what do we think is gonna happen when you when you are at your best, right? Yes, that's the type of mentality that I take.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Um exactly, yeah. You've got you give it what you've got, right? If you have 10% and you give 10%, then you gave 100%, right? And like, yeah, and I I even explained, speaking of the the Navy SEAL guy, you know, he and I talked once about 1% better every day. And he was like, that doesn't make sense because then you'd be a hundred percent perfect in a hundred days. And I was like, right, but then you level up again. So like when I first started working out, I could do three push-ups and I did those three push-ups to the best of my ability every day. And then I was doing six push-ups, that's a hundred percent increase. Well, now the clock basically resets. So one percent of that is now different, right? And so as you improve, the the gauge changes too, right? So like my 10% today is gonna be different than my 10% in a year, and hopefully it looks really different because on the days I can give my full effort, I do, which then again like increases that uh the oh my gosh, increases just the amount I can give on those lower effort days.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

For sure. Yeah, that's that's really cool. So I'm curious, you know, we've been talking about all these different behavior changes and and different things like that. How much do you think the environment that you create plays into being able to sustain these behavior changes?

SPEAKER_00 35:31

It's huge. It's I um I was just talking, oh my god, I was just talking to literally some of the most incredible brains ever. Um guy is a he's a PhD and an MD, his wife is a doctor in nursing. We're talking about kind of this trend of mindset and mindset over everything. And you know, you should be able to mindset your way through life. And I was talking about that. Like, what do you guys think about this? Like, you know, you're very evidence-based and you know, brilliant in the field and research. And they were like, that's frankly bullshit. Like our environment matters much more than our mindset does, right? And our mindset can get us through on those hard days. But like if your environment is not set up for success, at some point you're gonna crack. Like you need, you need to have people around you, you need to have your house set up, you need to have language around you that celebrates and pushes you forward more than you know, surrounding yourself with shitty people, shitty environment, and then you know, hoping that your thoughts are just gonna like push you through. That's just not how it works, right? Um, the example they used was when pharmaceutical techs drop off medications, like um when sales reps come by, they always leave a pen with their logo on it. And just having a pen with a logo on it is enough to change people's behaviors um in a pretty major way. There's like a lot of evidence behind that.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Okay. So with the firefighter example that you were talking about, not your brother, but I think it was a client or so. Oh yeah. Or maybe it wasn't him. But either way, say you want to include or improve your sleep. Like you talked about that a little bit. So, what are examples that that come top of mind when you think about environment for improving your sleep?

SPEAKER_00 37:21

So I would definitely like we're thinking about where are you spending your time and are you, you know, are you going to an area that is conducive to sleep? So if you get off your shift and you're going to the gym and then you're going to the grocery store, and then you're going to your kids' school, like none of those environments are conducive to sleep, right? So that's obviously a big one. But then it's like, do you go home and do you sit in front of the TV, or do you go home and you go into a room that you have conditioned yourself to associate with sleep? Like, okay, I am intentionally driving to the gym, working out, getting that on. And then I'm driving home and going into a room that is specifically set up for sleep, right? And and again, some of this is like, some of this is the idea of allowing yourself to sleep and to rest, because again, I think that's a huge mental block where it's like, I don't need it, I don't deserve it, I have to earn this. And they just go and go and go until they crash. And that's not healthy, right? And so you do want to intentionally set up an environment that is that is dark and cold and you know, no screens and just set yourself up for sleep. And then having like cues, so alarms on your phone, if you have a spouse, have your spouse remind you like our spouse is an environment.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

We want to fight, it's a fight waiting to happen.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

Yes, yeah, but but it's true, right? Like, and and tell them to use, like, hey, we have, you know, the kids, the kids' thing is tonight. Make sure you get some sleep so you can be fully present, right? So, yes, it is absolutely, but if you can, if you have a partnership where that's available, absolutely like, you know, have them give you a cue or have sticky notes, you know, get five minutes, like just having little reminders built into your to your day, to your home, those are going to be hugely beneficial and like kind of just shifting you and nudging you towards the right environment.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Okay. So kind of a curveball to you. Yeah. So with that, how would you recommend like when it's a little bit unrealistic, like for firefighters, or if you're on a deployment or you have like your schedule is extremely unpredictable? Are there still things or behaviors that you can try to stick with even through chaos?

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Yes. So, like, let's say you're right, that is a good example. Cause yeah, you can't always go to a cool dark room, right? In an ideal world, but not always. Um, so there are techniques that you can do to kind of get your body ready. So environmentally, we can't always control our environment, but we can control our body. And like I kind of consider that our environment. Like, what am I wearing? That's an environment that kind of comes with me. Um, what are my hands doing? Like, this is something I can control. And so, yeah, you're surrounded by noise and lights, and you know, there's a lot going on around you, you can still control your behaviors. And if you create a kind of a routine before you go to sleep, that can kind of help you set up opportunities in the future. So, like, let's think about this. So, when you are able to be in a a prime sleep area, you know, practice having a routine that puts you to sleep. So progressive muscle relaxation. Have you ever done anything like that?

SPEAKER_01 40:28

A little bit.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

Yeah, it's like where you, you know, like you're just basically creating body awareness, like tensing your hands, tensing your shoulders, and kind of just aware of your body. And then you focus on, okay, like I do this and then I fall asleep. But what you're doing is you're telling your body like these are cues for us to use when we're gonna fall asleep. And so even if you know, you can't control everything else, you can control, okay, I'm still gonna lay down, I'm gonna kind of complete this routine, I'm gonna be aware, and then I'm going to, you know, go to sleep. But obviously, like that's not behavior change. It works in any environment, but it has to be practiced more so when you have control. And that's like what I tell everyone is you know, you have to practice in controlled environments so that, and then you have to build in opportunities for chaos and tolerance for chaos so that when it happens, you're like, okay, shit, I practiced this when it was calm. Now I'm ready to do it in this, you know, this completely different environment.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Yeah, I really like that. Just kind of almost like raising your your ceiling, like when you do have control. So when you don't, it's it's dropped down a little bit, but you're still you're still in control, or you're still like hammering home the uh desired behavior change.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Yeah. Like I I remember I talked to um, I was on West Side Barbell, um, is they work with like uh athletes, and we were talking about how people will do really well in training and practice, but then they get to, you know, they choke when it's actually time to perform. And it's like, well, yeah, because they've been training in this very controlled environment, but you never actually introduced like flexibility or chaos, like anything, anything that they weren't expecting. And so, yes, you want to start in a very controlled environment and then you want to control how much chaos and interference is getting in the way. But then from there, you yeah, like you said, raise the ceiling. Like, because that way when you do come into contact with like this very out of control space, you're like, okay, I've done this, I can do this. Like, it's not gonna be the best. Maybe I just get 20%, but it's something and I can tolerate it being less than perfect.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Yeah, remember you I think you posted about it um a little while ago, but uh you I think you said psychological flexibility. Yeah, that is something that I was like, damn, love that. And that is so true, where it's okay to you know pivot if we have to, right? It's not like some things are out of your control. That's just the bottom line where there's nothing we can do. And yes, we're gonna go off course a little bit, but I think the more that we we kind of prep for those days and not, you know, intentionally not sleeping or doing certain things, but um, kind of working in the the curveballs is really cool.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, just like giving yourself opportunities to practice. Yeah, it's psychological flexibility, which just means this isn't gonna go according to plan. I'm not going to handle it perfectly, but what can I do, you know, in the situation? What is in my control? And usually what's in control is our behavior and our response, right? Like even our thoughts. That's another thing, right? Like our thoughts are not, and and this demographic specifically, tactical athletes, like first responders, um, high performers, like there are usually some pretty intense thoughts that come along with those roles. And you can't always control them, but you can control your behaviors and you can control like the response you have on your environment. And that's really helpful just to practice and understand. You know, I'm gonna tolerate all of this going on, and I'm also gonna manage myself within it.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Okay, cool. Yeah, that's that's awesome. That brings me to the last main topic that I wanted to talk about is so we're talking about controlling things, and sometimes I feel like this little rectangle is very hard to control with our iPhones here.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

So I'm curious, like on the topic of sleep, on the topic of you know, being intentional, having downtime with your family, so on and so forth. How do you think technology influences our behaviors?

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Okay, give me a second. I wanna. It's so when I talk about environment and how our environment impacts our behaviors more than anything else, our phone has basically become an environment that we take and willingly enter constantly, and it is out of our control. Um, I'm guilty of it for sure. I love to scroll because our because it's it's a way to escape and it is a way to kind of like relinquish control, right? Like I don't have to be in charge here. I'm just scrolling, I'm just consuming. And what has happened is we are now just escaping into it all the time. And we're using it for yeah, escape-maintained behavior here as a way to connect with people. And it's not really connection, it's more about just leaving the present moment. Um, it's the same way people will smoke, people will drink, workaholics, like we're so addicted to our phones. And this is intentional. I mean, behavior scientists, brilliant behavior scientists, designed these apps and um the screens that we use. And they did it knowing, you know, behaviorally, it's really, really reinforcing. I mean, it's immediate gratification, immediate ability to connect with somebody. If some, let's say my husband's pissing me off, cool, I'll just text my sister. Like she's gonna validate me, right? Or I'm bored at work, I'm just gonna get on my phone and play Zoom beanies, which is like a game that I like playing, right? And it's just like this quick gratification. Um, and then on top of that, so the way our brains and our eyes work is especially if you have kind of this urge for dopamine, um, our our brains and our eyes are trained to look for novel visual stimuli. Like we want new input. And if we find it, that's good. We want more of it. So when you're scrolling on your phone, you're just constantly getting novel visual stimuli, which means that when I'm sitting here looking around my office, I've seen this a million times. My brain is bored of it, like there's no hit, which then leads me back to I'm gonna look at my phone again because this is exciting, right? And that's that's why so many of the individuals we're talking about are in the fields that they're in, is because it's similar, like there's just constant challenge. Like you're constantly challenged, it's always something to solve. And our brains, that's what they crave. And so when we don't get that from our outside world, we go get it from our phone. And our phones are just an increasingly complex environment that we don't have control over. Um, so I encourage people to put it down, take a break, go touch grass. Yeah, you know, just be aware of the impact it's having on you.

SPEAKER_01 47:20

Is that a popular behavior change that you work with? Is like phone usage or different things like that?

SPEAKER_00 47:27

It's yes, it's an and it's an increasing, it's been an issue for a long time. People are just now willing to admit it. So it's, I mean, it it disrupts marriages, it disrupts sleep, it disrupts parenting. I mean, children, children are it's really, really bad because they're so young and their brains are just so malleable. But then even adults, like especially, you know, us, like we've been using it for the last 10 years, it's now ingrained in our daily habits and behaviors. We're picking it up when we're driving, we're bringing it in the shower, we're bringing it in the bathroom. It's constantly on us. And it's just, you know, people are realizing holy shit, like this is I can't function without it. And it's impacting the way I interact with every other person in my life.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

So, with that, you know, with like say a Instagram detox, or um, I don't know if you've heard the term like sitting there and just raw dogging it or people just like do those things like actually work? Is that going for is that changing the stimulus or is that changing the behavior, or is that just taking a break and putting a putting a patch on it, putting a band-aid on it?

SPEAKER_00 48:40

So it definitely depends on what you're looking to get out of it. I would say it is like so by by changing the stimulus, by changing the environment, change the behavior. And so, like leaving your phone behind while you go on a walk with your dog, that's great because you're just building your, we'll just say attention span for simplicity, right? Like your ability to sit and look and enjoy the world around you or connect with people, right? Um, but yeah, like it's not, it's not do it once and you're fixed. It's, you know, you have to build this new habit and this new behavior. And what's what's really important, and we didn't even talk about this, but like whenever you get rid of a behavior, it leaves a hole in your life and there is a need that it was meeting. So we have to meet that need some other way. So if you're using your phone to escape, you have to find another healthy alternative to escape. Like if you're using it for stress management or stress reduction, okay, cool. Like I throw my phone away, but now when I get stressed, what am I gonna do? So it's like, okay, well, now instead of that, I have to have a replacement behavior that meets the same need. And that's where people get hung up because it's like, you know, I I know I need to stop doing this, but what do I do instead? And you literally cannot punish your way into a new behavior. Like that's not, it doesn't work. It's behaviorally impossible. Punishment, you decrease the behavior, but then you've got to intentionally replace it with a desired, you know, a desired one.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

So with the desired one, do you have any specific recommendations or do you think it's completely individualized?

SPEAKER_00 50:12

It is completely individualized, but there are there are functions of behavior. So every behavior meets a function. And so if you can narrow it to that category, that helps a lot. So if I know someone is using their phone to connect with others, okay, we know that you want to connect. How can we connect in a healthier way that's not on your phone? That might look like going to meet up with like social groups, might mean calling a friend, like something specific to that individual. If you're using it for escape, okay, what's another way to escape? Can we just go outside and breathe for five minutes? Can we, you know, um go talk to a friend, like just kind of escape. I've even had people like, when you're going to the bathroom, so people take their phone in the bathroom and it's like, well, this is I'm escaping the whole world because the bathroom is sacred. You don't bother people in there, right? So you'll and you'll find yourself being like, This is where I feel safe. And it's like, okay, you're free to go in there. You just can't take your phone. And so it's like I'm allowing myself to escape, but I'm not allowing that, you know, added piece of bringing the phone in with me.

SPEAKER_01 51:09

Yeah, that's all really good stuff. Yeah, the the thing that I have been working on is just embracing boredom. Like it's okay to be like it going. Yeah, a hundred percent. Going for a walk without distractions, or for a while, like when I was commuting to school, it's like, I'm not gonna listen to a podcast or anything, I'm just gonna sit with my thoughts. And it's like previously, I would think that's like a serial killer move just because of how fast-paced the world is. But like you said, that's when some of my best ideas come to mind. And it's like, oh wow, boom, like there it is. I've been stressing myself out about it. There's the answer. Um creating a psychological space.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

Yeah, and and if you think about it, like there it's incompatible. You can't be consuming ideas and coming up with your own at the same time. So as long as you're consuming content, you're not having your own original thoughts. You're just being fed other people's thoughts and opinions. And so if you're someone who is trying to create or think for yourself or have new ideas, you've got to put that down. It's literally, it's incompatible. So, you know, you have to start practicing, you have to decide what do I value more? Do I value this escape that it's giving me, or do I value my ability to think and create and you know shift, shift the way I see the world?

SPEAKER_01 52:27

Damn. Well, Sarah, this has been awesome. I could talk about this stuff all day. So I'll have to have you have to have you back on. Um, just a final question here. So we touched on it a little bit, um, but you know, say you got a tactical athlete coming to you, they are ready to white knuckle approach, they are ready for motivation, discipline to change eight different behaviors or whatever that may be. What is the the biggest piece of advice that you would give that that person?

SPEAKER_00 53:00

I I would say pause for a minute, right? And it's just like when someone's selling something to you and you can feel your adrenaline going up and you don't don't buy right then, you're like, let me just take a step back. You're selling yourself something, like take a step back. Like, what are you actually looking to change? Um, and are you willing to take this is the biggest thing. Are you willing to take the first tiny step? I don't care about the big plan. Are you willing to take the first tiny step towards whatever outcome you're chasing? Right. Because yes, you can have eight behaviors that you're planning to change and you're ready to, you know, white knuckle it and be motivated and disciplined, but like that's all great in theory, but are you actually taking the steps or are you just telling yourself you're going to take the steps? Um, and so that's again, I lose people don't want to do that. They don't want to take the the boring first step because it's not fun, it's not exciting. It's more exciting to look at this huge whiteboard of you know ideas, but that's not that feels productive, but it doesn't get you anywhere. So yeah, take the first tiny step.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

Cool. Well, Sarah, I appreciate it. Where can people find you?

SPEAKER_00 54:07

Um, oh, I'm on Instagram at Sarah Welsh Behavior, and then I have a website, catalystbehaviorproject.com. I'm always happy to just troubleshoot, DM me, my DMs are always open. I love to just talk people through, you know, whatever, whatever they're working on.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 54:24

Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

Of course.